TexasAndroid
09/21/05 04:58 PM
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Over on the moderator section, we've been discussing what new features/changes/tweaks could be added to improve functionality. I figured it was worth tossing out over here as well to see if anyone else had any brilliant ideas. So please, toss them out. Serious, down to earth or pie in the sky wish list stuff. Minor tweaks or major overhauls. What would *you* like to see changed about the site?
TexasAndroid
Virtual Globetrotting Moderator
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yikesahootie
09/22/05 09:50 PM
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Hmmm.
I'm not sure what has been suggested before, but...
* the ability to preview a submission -- one last chance to check for typos and such
* an improved way to check for duplicates -- somehow I'm not searching successfully when I use keywords or location
* (here's REAL pie-in-the-sky stuff) the ability for registered users to add notes on the thumbnails, a la Flickr. I know the thumbnail size porvides a very limited amount of real estate to do so
* a bigger thumbnail, in addition to the regular 150x150 one
* more categories!
That's it for now. It amazes that sites like this (which are largely a labor of love by the owners) even exist! Think of the bandwidth!
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TexasAndroid
09/23/05 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Hmmm.
I'm not sure what has been suggested before, but...
* the ability to preview a submission -- one last chance to check for typos and such
Definitely on the To Do list
Quote:
* an improved way to check for duplicates -- somehow I'm not searching successfully when I use keywords or location
This is a bit more tricky. Once a map is submitted, the moderators can run a check to figure out what other maps are close to a submitted one. But this is computationally intense, having to compare the new location to all 8K+ other maps. If we could come up with some way to let the regular user do this before submission without totally bogging down the whole site, that would help, but we're been trying to figure this out for other reasons, and have yet to come up with a good answer.
Quote:
* (here's REAL pie-in-the-sky stuff) the ability for registered users to add notes on the thumbnails, a la Flickr. I know the thumbnail size porvides a very limited amount of real estate to do so
Haven't really seen Flickr, so I'm not sure how this would work.
Quote:
* a bigger thumbnail, in addition to the regular 150x150 one
This gets into storage issues, as Nic's system has to store all the thumbnails. Could you give me a better idea of what you have in mind?
Quote:
* more categories!
This is actually the easiest. What categories do you have in mind? Useful ideas for categories are definitely welcome.
TexasAndroid
Virtual Globetrotting Moderator
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yikesahootie
09/23/05 10:23 PM
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Flickr tags & notes:
http://flickr.com/learn_more_3.gne
RE: categories -- of course I can't think of any, now that I'm on the spot! But I'll try to think of what prompted that suggestion. I remember thinking it posting a couple of maps, wondering how they should be categorized. I think one was the winery, which became a farm.
Bah! I'll try to remember! My brain is fried!
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nic
09/24/05 12:54 AM
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Great ideas yikesahootie!
Several are already on the todo list, as TexasAndroid points out.
The tags ala Flickr is a great idea, I've added that to my list as well.
Post when you think of new categories!
As far as larger thumbnails, I think I'm going to stick with 150x150 for the time being. For example, if the user wants to see more, they should go to the Google Maps website directly. If I were storing a huge image of the map (i.e. the whole map), I think Google could get upset.
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Anonymous
09/26/05 12:38 AM
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I think it would be worthwhile to have "Latest" as your homepage, and then have the calendar photos that currently occupies that spot as a link. I think you'd get more users submitting photos then, because they would have a greater chance of their map being seen by a greater number of people. As it is now, if you are lucky enough to have your image as one of the final ten, you get more click-throughs, however, if your map falls off the homepage, you are lucky if you break double digits.
pdunn
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romulusnr
09/29/05 05:10 PM
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PHP can already do this on its own (with the Image module); but there is also ImageMagick which can be called directly.
Also, not having to have a perfect square would be nice. I've been frustrated when my resize came to 150x149 and I couldn't u/l.
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kjfitz
09/29/05 05:34 PM
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We took to heart the idea that more people would post more often if they had more chance of their images showing up on the front page.
Every 20 minutes the front page will be randomly re-shuffled. Statistically all the maps submitted will now get an even exposure. If there are 12 or fewer submissions in a day then all the submissions for that day will be displayed. There is no longer any advantage to being the last person to submit a map on any given day sice all days are shuffled as long as they are on the front page.
Nic has also added two more images (was 10, is now 12).
You can still click on the current date and see all the maps submitted in chronological order though.
kjfitz
Virtual Globetrotting Moderator
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romulusnr
09/29/05 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
* an improved way to check for duplicates -- somehow I'm not searching successfully when I use keywords or location
This is a bit more tricky. Once a map is submitted, the moderators can run a check to figure out what other maps are close to a submitted one. But this is computationally intense, having to compare the new location to all 8K+ other maps. If we could come up with some way to let the regular user do this before submission without totally bogging down the whole site, that would help, but we're been trying to figure this out for other reasons, and have yet to come up with a good answer.
Wouldn't the Find Nearby feature help here?
Quote:
Quote:
* (here's REAL pie-in-the-sky stuff) the ability for registered users to add notes on the thumbnails, a la Flickr. I know the thumbnail size porvides a very limited amount of real estate to do so
Haven't really seen Flickr, so I'm not sure how this would work.
[\quote]
Basically they have a DHTML (or something) app by which you can draw rectangles on the image, and then add a note related to the rectangle. Then whenever the image is viewed, the rectangles serve as "hot spots" and hovering over them displays the associated note. Not really useful in 150x150, which is probably why he then goes on to ask for bigger thumbnails.
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Anonymous
09/30/05 12:32 AM
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I think there should be a great amount of flexibillity in excluding maps that are in close proximity to maps already submitted. For example, I've probably looked at "Four Destroyed Jets at Al Taquddum" more than any other map; however, it wasn't until someone posted the twelve or so Beagles that I had any idea they existed. Sometimes there are things overlooked within a submitted map that bear another submission.
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kjfitz
09/30/05 01:16 AM
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I definitely have no problem with people submitting maps that break down another map into sub parts.
Just today someone submitted a small group of B-52's that exist within the larger "Aircraft graveyard."
Then there was the great breakdown of the Vatican done recently.
I don't clearly understand what you mean by "flexibility in excluding." Do you mean the moderators should be more flexible and not exclude ones close together? If that's the case, rest assured that if two sites very close, even in each other's thumbnails, We'll allow them if they are two distinctly different subjects or objects. Granted, sometimes that gets tedious when there are eight of one type of object and it gets eight seperate submissions, but still, We'll let it pass.
kjfitz
Virtual Globetrotting Moderator
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TexasAndroid
09/30/05 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
* an improved way to check for duplicates -- somehow I'm not searching successfully when I use keywords or location
This is a bit more tricky. Once a map is submitted, the moderators can run a check to figure out what other maps are close to a submitted one. But this is computationally intense, having to compare the new location to all 8K+ other maps. If we could come up with some way to let the regular user do this before submission without totally bogging down the whole site, that would help, but we're been trying to figure this out for other reasons, and have yet to come up with a good answer.
Wouldn't the Find Nearby feature help here?
The Find Nearby feature only works once the distances have all been calculted. This is done automatically once an hour for new maps, and the moderators can force the calculating to be done, to assist in judging whether new maps are duplicates. When the calculations are run, they lock up the site for 10-20 seconds per map, so it's not something to be run casually. Until the distances for a new map are performed, Find Nearby simply will not work.
TexasAndroid
Virtual Globetrotting Moderator
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Anonymous
09/30/05 12:04 PM
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Another nice feature would be the ability to open a "submit map" window from the map you are currently viewing. That way, you can easily jump from page to page to add information such as URL As it is now, you have to open a new window or redirect the Google Globetrotting front page.
Another thought is the ability to automatically submit a 150 x 150 pixel image from the center of the map you are viewing. That way, users could simply center their desired images and then press "clip." Ideally the image would open, already formatted in a "submit map" menu.
pdunn
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kjfitz
09/30/05 12:31 PM
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Good ideas, but... If you are viewing a map that implies that you are in Google Maps. Remember that this site is not affiliated with Google so adding a clip or submit button to their page is going to be somewhat difficult. I suppose Nic could load each Google Map page into a frame or use an API like the Tour pages use but since each of those options shrinks the size of the map I would probably not want to use it. But it does have me thinking. I'll talk to nic about other ways of simplifying map submissions for people without the tools or inclination to use the ones that are available.
kjfitz
Virtual Globetrotting Moderator
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romulusnr
09/30/05 02:03 PM
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Someone could conceivably write a bookmarklet that did that, though -- at least, the act of capturing the center 150x150 of the current GMaps view.
I think that would actually result in a trend towards poorer thumbnails, though. IMO it is best to clip the image around the area of interest (to something larger than 150x150), and then resize it down to 150x150.
Kids, just use Alt-PrintScreen and then open your graphics program and do a paste. It's not too hard. (Or in Linux, get ImageMagick and use the "import" command, then open the magick.miff file with "display" and crop, resize, and save.)
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romulusnr
09/30/05 02:06 PM
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Quote:
The Find Nearby feature only works once the distances have all been calculted. This is done automatically once an hour for new maps, and the moderators can force the calculating to be done, to assist in judging whether new maps are duplicates. When the calculations are run, they lock up the site for 10-20 seconds per map, so it's not something to be run casually. Until the distances for a new map are performed, Find Nearby simply will not work.
Then maybe we should leave it up to the user community and provide them an easy way to report dupes. It won't keep dupes from being submitted but it would clean them out.
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AlbinoFlea
10/06/05 11:05 AM
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A few thoughts about the issue of duplication:
= = = = =
Personally, I just open the KML feed for the state/country that I'm searching in and have a look at what's been submitted in Google Earth. I typically surf for maps in Google Earth anyhow, and go back and forth between Google Maps and Google Earth to verify coverage and create my lat/lon links.
The major drawbacks to this method:
- Google Earth isn't eaxctly cross-platform friendly at this point, and leaves out a fair portion of the user community.
- Incorrect assignment of the State or Country can unnecessarily mask maps from view.
On the plus-side:
- The KML feeds already exist on the site.
- No calculations need to be performed, so there's no strain on the server.
= = = = =
The discussion of latitude/longitude searching and distance calculations also led me to think that there might be a way, perhaps not ideal but more functional, to index the lat/lon coordinates in the database and simply perform a bracketed search of the coordinates.
The major drawbacks to this method:
- You still have at the least a 2 step process; find all maps with lat between x+a and x-a, then among these find all maps with lon between y+a and y-a.
- The relation between degrees latitude or longitude and kilometers varies with the latitude and longitude, and will necessitate another step if the distance in kilometers is something that you want to keep.
- You would end up with a search area in the shape of a square (perhaps a trapezoid) rather than a circle, so not every map returned in such a search would be strictly within a specified distance.
On the plus-side:
- In the extreme north and south, where the longitude to kilometer ratio is the most variable, we're not likely to get too many submissions, since those areas are a)mostly low-res and b)mostly uninhabited.
- Even if you put in a third step to account for this variation, the only calculation is a simple conversion that happens once before the sorting process begins, and the rest of the process is simply database retrieval.
- You could abandon the issue of kilometers altogether and just opt for a more generic sense of "nearby".
= = = = =
The other idea I had builds on the idea that the GGT community should be the one finding and identifying duplicates; gather a group of volunteers to be duplicate searchers for particular regions, sub-moderators of regional map uniqueness (SMORMUs anyone?) that each have a particular area to patrol. Regions could be strictly geographic, or could be more patchwork and based upon dividing up the globe into map-submission frequency areas. SMORMUs would identify duplicates, but not have the ability to delete or alter submissions; they would submit their findings to the moderators as part of a double-check system. Each region could have its own RSS feed to keep SMORMUs up-to-date with recent postings.
The major drawbacks to this method:
- There may not be enough active members with an interest in this sort of activity to make it feasible.
- Involves coordinating a larger group of individuals.
- There would be a definite lag-time between when a map was submitted and when it was checked for duplication.
On the plus-side:
- More active engagement of the user community.
- Users that develop a degree of familiarity with a region will be able to spot duplicates fairly quickly.
= = = = =
So, there's 3 ideas: one personal, one technical, one social.
AlbinoFlea
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TexasAndroid
10/06/05 01:03 PM
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On your third issue. There is already a very easy way for users to notify the moderators of duplicates. The normal map comment system. Moderators see all comments, and watch new comments regularly already for spam, offensive stuff, and general correction requests. If you ever find a duplicate, a quick comment on the page is enough to get the moderators looking into it.
TexasAndroid
Virtual Globetrotting Moderator
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kjfitz
10/06/05 02:12 PM
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Sometimes there are what look like duplicates that we don't delete for one reason or another. An example is the Robinson Crusoe post. There doesn't have to be a very strong argument for leaving a dupe if for some reason the two posts are differently focused.
I'm not aware of many other dupes though. While it is hard for a general user to see if things are dupes before they post the moderators have an automatic tool that lists all dupes across all maps based on proximity of coordinates. For instance with the Washington DC posts, each new post in the mall area results in about six or seven dupe notifications that we have to look over and either delete the dupe or mark it ignore when two different targets are very close together.
The dupe checker fails to catch dupes when the maps are submitted at very low magnification. You and I could submit different links for the whole Hawaiian Island chain that while looking the same could be off by dozens if not hundreds of miles. These are the ones that leak through. Comments usually catch those.
Another type of dupe we often allow through are ones that decompose a subject. If someone posts "The Vatican" and another posts "Sistine Chapel" we allow that. If someone posts "Stadium x and Arena y" I'll sometimes allow a posting of one and modify the other or move it to satellite updates.
I delete two to five dupes a day. I think we're catching most if not all. If there are others that you know about please note them in the comments for that submission.
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As for "owners" of specific areas I see the community slowly and organically coming to that. There are already special interests that seem to have champions that moderate-through-comments their specific expertise. Military, covert, DC, LA, South America, and France are a few that I can think of right off the bat. I like seeing this kind of growth. We could formally assign these but since it is all volunteer it would be hard to "make" someone do their job; it's really a labor of love. If someone cared enough to sign up and do the job consistently then they are probably already doing that. Having them sign up and not do their job could actually discourage people from "stepping on" other people's area of "responsibility." So, I'm not opposed per se to what you recommend, I'm just skeptical of the value it would add at this point in the sites evolution. If the site grows to the point of a few hundred posts a day I could see the need for more formal "area moderators."
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I like your ideas on coordinate lookups but I'll leave it to nic to determine if your algorithm is more efficient than that which he is already using. I'm a broken record on the moderator discussion list asking for a tool where I can enter a set of coordinates (my house let's say) and get back a list of all the submitted sites "close to" the entered coordinates. I accept though that the current technology and platform as implemented does not support that feature.
kjfitz
Virtual Globetrotting Moderator
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nic
10/11/05 05:25 PM
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As far as entering a coord and seeing what's near: I've thought about it a bit, and I think I can allow a "maps withing X miles", where X is small, by simply ignoring latitude/longitude distance calculation based on a sphere (which contains a ton of SIN/COS calculations, etc), and instead limiting it to a plane(pythagorean theorem).
I hope to implement this soon.
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