joepublic
10/24/08 06:07 AM
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Point proven: ratings are easy to manipulate and mean nothing... Also it seems 'the managment' manipulate them at their leisure to. 
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tlp333
10/24/08 04:34 PM
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What in the heck are you both blathering about? Why must the focus be on "web traffic"? Where do you see where that was ever the intent of this website? The intent of this website is for people to post whatever interests them and make it a part of their own personal collection. Who cares how many people view it? Or who cares what quantity of maps people post, or quality for that matter? What one person might find important, another person might not.
Customer service training? Are you kidding me?
Personal power trips? What in the heck are you talking about?
I will agree that the RATINGS mean absolutely nothing, but other than that, I think MAV is a little misguided about what this website is about, and it sounds like this may not be the website for him.
Peace.
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milwhcky
10/24/08 06:06 PM
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I'm not a moderator. Never met one. However, I feel the need to stick up for them.
A site like this, where anyone who visits is allowed to contribute - either with maps, comments, photos, or stories - needs to be policed. Otherwise, spammers and other misguided people would spoil the fun.
The moderators take time out of their daily schedules to stop by the site to approve submissions in queue, respond to requests in the forum, and delete inappropriate comments.
The maps submitted to the site are almost always approved as long as the URL and thumbnail are properly prepared and the scene is not already featured on the site. I'm always looking at what's in queue, and it's not very often I notice something that gets rejected. That goes to show the moderators are not on a power trip. They would be rejecting maps left and right if that were the case.
I have not noticed any tampering with map ratings. Some of the regulars here commented recently that the ratings mean very little to them. There are over 700 visitors compared to just 5 registered users visiting the site as I type this. I'm guessing a large percentage of map ratings come from unregistered visitors of the site.
However, I feel the moderaters sometimes delete comments that could stay. I suppose the theory is if a comment does not add value to the submission (more info or a related link), then it does not belong. I wouldn't mind if they kept more tame opinion comments, but I understand how one's opinion can spur on an ugly thread of comments. That's one part of keeping this site fun, I guess.
There are over 55,000 scenes on the site. Not every submitted map is going to interest every visitor to the site. I guarantee I've submitted maps that have a small "fanbase". One of my life's passions is travelling to different auto racing venues - big and small - and I enjoy cataloging them on this site. I revisit many of my submissions when reading about a track, or planning a road trip. However, I realize that many of my least viewed maps are race tracks. That does not bother me one bit.
The point is... if you are not satisfied with enough of the 55k+ choces on this site, then move along or take the time to contribute what does interest you.
Thanks to all the moderators for taking the time to keep this site worth coming back to day after day.
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Parabellum
10/24/08 06:42 PM
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Nicely said, milwhcky. Thank you.
I'd just like to add the fact that moderators DO NOT have the power to manipulate ratings (Other than by voting, like anyone else).
VGT Moderator
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joepublic
10/25/08 08:13 AM
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Reply to Parabellum: the mods may not have the power to manipulate ratings individually, but that can group together with others to push people off of the top slot (like we have seen happen in the last 3 days) ;-)
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Parabellum
10/25/08 09:36 AM
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joepublic, I can assure you that the mods are doing no such thing.
VGT Moderator
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pmoore66
10/25/08 07:07 PM
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When I initially brought up the question regarding ratings, I was just curious about the intent. After learning that other contributors view the ratings in various lights my curiosity was sated. Attacking the moderators for providing much needed quality review seems a little extreme. Hey mods, job well done.
PMOORE66
sculpture/architecture advocate
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joepublic
10/25/08 09:55 PM
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I love this forum xx
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joepublic
10/26/08 07:35 AM
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Parabellum: b***s***
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Parabellum
10/26/08 10:12 AM
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Joepublic, ratings might be being manipulated, but the moderators are not involved.
And if you are going to continue to call me a liar I'd suggest you gather a few facts to back up your claim.
VGT Moderator
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Pdunn
10/26/08 08:04 PM
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Joepublic is being disingenuous.
But first, my apologies to Parabellum, Nic and all the moderators. I'm afraid that I am the one who Joepublic is referring to. Because I have been manipulating the ratings. Or should I say, repairing the damage that Joe Public (and Bermuda Breeze) have inflicted to this site. My actions were done unilaterally without consulting the other moderators.
And here is why
Both Joe Public and Bermuda Breeze have been manipulating the ratings for weeks. As evidence, against Joepublic, I present this map:
http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/56455/. For evidence against Bermuda Breeze, well check out any one of his maps, but his Tina Turner map (http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/49805/) with 196 votes (all "10" but my own) in a very very short period of time speaks for itself.
At the time of this posting, Joepublic's map (highlighted above) was yet again on the front page of the top-rated maps. A spot it has held for weeks on end. Yet, it only has 77 views total. Joepublic would have you believe more than half (35) of the viewers who have clicked on this rather obscure D-day scene, were so compelled by what they saw that they gave it a perfect "10" 100% of the time.
Not only were Joepublic (and Bermuda Breeze) padding their votes to assure their maps assumed and maintained the top-rated maps on the site, they were voting "0" for any and all the other user's maps that were ahead of theirs. Although, I don't know a single one of these users personally, I respect and have come to know each and everyone through their postings. Bermuda Breeze went so far as to "zero" vote more than four pages of maps, regardless of content, to assure only his celebrity homes were featured on the site's front pages.
At one point the front page consisted only of these two user's (I use the term loosely) maps. That's when I intervened. Showing no favoritism toward any one map, I "0" voted each of Bermuda Breeze's and JoePublic's maps whenever they appeared on the front page and voted up as many of the maps that they had voted off that I could in the limited time I had.
Without exception, within hours of "correcting" the vote rigging, the same two user's maps would resume their original spot and we'd begin the cycle over again.
And while I feel my intervention was well intentioned, by the thread above and the limb I have put my fellow moderators and respected members out upon, I realize my actions were wrong. I should have simply excluded the two user's maps from further voting.
I will understand fully if Nic, the moderators and the member community should decide I abused my trust as a moderator and relieve me of my moderator privledges.
With sincerity,
Pdunn
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nic
10/27/08 01:26 AM
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Thank you for your honesty Pdunn.
After reading everyone's responses, it's very interesting to go back and looking at the server logs!
Taking a look at the logs over the last week, we had 1936 map votes. Of those votes, 82% were made by 3 users (Pdunn, joepublic and one other). By the voting pattern (they would vote 10 for their own map, and vote 1 for everyone else's), I am able to correlate which users were voting this way (with the exception of Pdunn trying to 'correct' the votes).
This 1/10 voting pattern is certainly not in the spirit of the site; but I am not sure if or how we could actively prevent it.
Pdunn - I do not think you abused your privileges as a moderator, rather just your voice as a user of the community (as joepublic and others have). I do not necessarily agree with users only voting 1/10 for maps to 'game' the system, but it would be hard to stop it.
Mav - I've added the Map Views / Map stat you wanted to look at: http://virtualglobetrotting.com/stats/userviewspermap/. It's interesting, but is heavily skewed for users who have submitted a small number of maps that are pretty popular.
I have the highest respect for all of the moderators on this site. Without them, I can sincerely tell you that VGT would not exist. They dedicate their time and judgment to make sure the site is high quality. The most important thing to me is that they've free'd my time to be able to develop the site further and further each year. It would not be possible without them. I will stand by every one of them.
That said, what do you all think? Should we make changes to the system?
Should we restrict votes so users cannot vote on their own maps (this would be hard to enforce if a user is not logged in)?
Should we restrict the # of votes from a user/IP per hour?
Should we throw out the 1-10 voting system in favor of a Digg-like "+1/-1" system?
I'm open to ideas.
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joepublic
10/31/08 06:50 AM
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The only reason i manipulated my own ratings in the first place was because someone started doing it to me... I have stopped now. I have proved my point - ratings can't be trusted, and neither can (some) mods.
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Pdunn
10/31/08 08:07 AM
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Great, we look forward to seeing more of your maps.
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Tyco
10/31/08 01:36 PM
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As a new user I don't even look at the ratings because too few people actually rate maps. I look at the calender to find the newest maps. I will say though if you get a map on the front page it gets alot more views, as my WOW map had by far the most view of my maps. Is there a way to see the most viewed maps?
I think the moderators are doing a great job.
Tyco
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Pdunn
10/31/08 02:14 PM
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Thanks, Tyco.
You can find the maps with the most views in the "most popular" section of the site: http://virtualglobetrotting.com/maps/?so=2
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Tyco
10/31/08 02:50 PM
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As a way to get more turnover of maps on the "most viewed" could you also have the most viewed in the last 30 days?
The could be what's hot and new.
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Pdunn
10/31/08 03:40 PM
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On the home page there is a category of the "Most popular maps over the last 30 days". Although, it lacks the thumnails (there's a hyperlink instead) of the most popular page.
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Tyco
10/31/08 08:35 PM
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I noticed it after I posted but it is only the top couple. The title link takes you to the most all time views. I love the site so it works for me.
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